Y'know something?

[ashinae]

The fact that Joss Whedon acknowledged that Spike and Angel had done it at some point in the past 100 years; the fact that Joss Whedon gave Inara Serra a female client; the fact that Joss Whedon had a canon lesbian character who had two canon lesbian relationships -- it's a lot better than what Rob Tapert gave us for Xena. A whole fucking lot better. It's a lot better than the subtle ambiguous hints that werewolf=homosexual that we were given by Cuaron, Kloves, and possibly Rowling if she really does get some measure of approval on the Harry Potter movies.

We haven't come that far in the past ten years, since Xena: Warrior Princess came on the air. If I had a dollar for every time I've read someone saying that they stopped watching Xena when Xena and Gabrielle got "too gay", I could treat myself and a friend or two for dinner at the bloody Keg (for the uninitiated: a particularly expensive steakhouse restaurant). If I had a dollar for every time someone freaked out over the Willow/Tara subtext back in the fourth season of Buffy, I could buy myself the entire collection of Aubrey-Maturin books -- again.

There's a reason Queer as Folk and The L Word run on a cable network, people. It's because even while shows like Buffy, Angel, and Xena run on the far fringes of "mainstream" television, they'd still lose a huge chunk of their audience if their central figure(s) were queer. That's just. the. way. it. is. Does it piss me off? Of course! But in a day and age where the only "acceptable" queer show is bloody Will and Grace, I think we do sort of have to count our blessings. Oz and Six Feet Under are still just cable shows.

Should there be more? Of course. But in so much of today's society, with all this ranting about "indecency" and "the gay agenda" (obviously if I have not seen one, bisexuals aren't allowed?), it's easier for creators of shows to hint about it, or have the gay character not be the central character, or acknowledge it after the fact, than to risk alienating sponsors and a big slice of the audience. Because, yes, it is a big slice of the audience. Even if someone is in the sort of environment that's open-minded enough to watch a show like Angel, they may still have problems with the icky GAY. I know people who are not at all religious, or only pay lip service at major holidays but have never even read a Bible, who don't like the GAY.

Is it bad that we live in such a society? Duh. But dear lord -- look how far we've come. The fact that Lucy Lawless has stated, since the demise of Xena, that she does believe that Xena and Gabrielle were more than just friends? It makes me fucking happy! I do not blame show writers and creators at all for being afraid to point-blank say "YES THEY WERE", no matter how sad I think it is that they couldn't have given it a proper canon, on-screen acknowledgement. They danced around the issue.

But looking at the way things are right now -- in a world where people are dying from natural disasters and man-made wars, and yet undeniably one of the biggest hot-button issues is gay marriage -- I am absolutely fucking pleased as punch that there are people like Joss Whedon, creating as they are. And I think one of the trickiest things is to make it the male title character of a show; for a lot of people, one homosexual experience is enough to make a guy irrevocably GAY. It is, of course, not the same for females -- women are absolutely allowed to be bisexual, whereas the ridiculous double-standard is that men are either straight or gay. No fence-straddling for them, no sir.

To have it acknowledged, on-screen, with no ambiguity that Angel and Spike had screwed around together would have been fantastic. But, no, Joss didn't do it. He's pushing boundaries enough as it is, and sometimes, being cautious and doing things slowly is the only way to go. As unfortunate and upsetting as it is, nobody's going to start accepting THE GAY if it's forced down their throats. It hurts to say this, but it's absolutely no different than the way I or a lot of people will not accept religion when it's being forced down our throats.

I think that, even in my very short lifetime, "alternative sexualities" have made incredible leaps and bounds. Do I hope to see gay people actually treated as people in my lifetime? Yes. Am I going to be surprised if they aren't? Sadly, no. Not with the dominant belief systems in place, I'm afraid to say. Do I hope, desperately, that there will be enough acceptance that there will be a hit, mainstream television show that isn't a silly half-hour sitcom, that focuses on a gay or bisexual character, who also just happens to be gay or bisexual, in the way that any other character just happens to be straight?

Abso-fucking-lutely.

But am I honestly the only person who sees that, with the way the world is, baby steps are needed?

Comments

[gairid.livejournal.com]

But am I honestly the only person who sees that, with the way the world is, baby steps are needed?

I don't think you are. I agree with you, actually, but when you are living directly in the reality of the way things are, that is, the fact that there is an entire segment of the population who don't want another entire section of the population to have the same rights as they do because they love a person of the same sex, then sometimes your reaction can be more volatile than you expect.

I watched BtVS and AtS when they were running and I enjoyed them both. I read a lot of fic (Angel/Spike being a favorite) but I'm not too involved in the fandom other than that. Joss's recent statement has been making the rounds on several journals on my f-list and the varied reactions are interesting to read. Some people feel vindicated, others seem to be angry with Joss, saying it's too little too late, or that he has nothing to lose now that both series are off the air.

I disagree. I feel that the subtext was there all along and that Whedon, in not squelching his fans' expressions of belief in that subtext, even to the point of being encouraging in their efforts (fanfic in general, anyway,) went a long way in promoting acceptance of sexuality as a fluid thing, not easily pinned down. It's a lot more than so many others have done, that's for sure.

BTW, I friended you a little while back...saw a vid of your several months ago, an M&C one which I can no longer get to load. I think I must have gotten the link from one of the m&C communities I read. Anyway, I thought the vid was wonderful!

[ashinae.livejournal.com]

the fact that there is an entire segment of the population who don't want another entire section of the population to have the same rights as they do because they love a person of the same sex, then sometimes your reaction can be more volatile than you expect.

Oh, I absolutely get that. I don't know exactly how long you've taken notice of my journal, or how far back you've read, but I am bisexual. Bisexuals get it from all sides. It's frustrating. And I can, of course, react in a rather volatile manner, but I save my rage for things I see on the news, rather than DVD commentaries by people who write and create TV shows, y'know? ;) The fact that people are outraged by Whedon's comments baffle me.

I feel that the subtext was there all along

Absolutely. And in re: the rest of the sentence that followed that -- since Joss was so in tune with how fans reacted to some things, given the way people who were so opposed to the Willow/Tara "subtext" (and then, maintext) reacted, I am forced to wonder if he chose to keep the Angel/Spike more under the radar simply because of that. Angel was the focal character; Willow wasn't. I know it's frustrating, but it's a tricky, dangerous thing for the focal, title character to be queer. Because, sadly, it's that he is GAY; not that he just happens to be. :-/

It's a lot more than so many others have done, that's for sure.

Damn. Freaking. Straight. That's, like, the entire point of my rant, pretty much. He's done so much more, taken so many more risks, than others have (ie, Xena, for the love of God...). As a burned Xena fan, I think Whedonverse fans are really frelling lucky.

saw a vid of your several months ago, an M&C one which I can no longer get to load.

Try here. :)

Anyway, I thought the vid was wonderful!

Aww, thank you so much! :)

[moonlit-page.livejournal.com]

Forgive me for not writing more right now, I'm so exhausted. But I read every word and I HAVE to agree with every sentiment. The puritans need to get smacked down so that we can focus on getting good, true-to-life stories. Even mega-myths and splashy epics only work if the characters are reachable, believable humans, and humans are sometimes The Gay. Pretending they aren't, hiding in the closet, just hinting at it -- a lot of times a good story is sacrificed. Sexuality is a HUGE clue into personality. The people we see on screen should be like the people we see in life -- varied, confused, special, sexual, cowardly and heroic, fat, skinny, black, asian, white, hermaphroditic, psychotic, old, wrinkled, desperate, kind. They should take a shit and brush their teeth and freak out under pressure every once in a while. Recycling the same bullshit (Dynasty, Melrose, Dawson's Creek, The OC, Jack and Bobby, etc etc) or dipping into cheap-ass reality shows are an extreme disservice to art, to actors, to the audience. A symphony that plays in only one scale is BORING. There should be gay characters in every tv show or movie that isn't specifically about only straight characters. The End. love, Roo

[ashinae.livejournal.com]

You're very, very right. And it's a frustrating catch-22 -- until the puritans, as you say, can come to grips that people of "alternative sexualities" are just people too, nothing can be done as far as media figures. The fact that Buffy is heterosexual is not one of the most important parts of her character; the fact that Willow is not heterosexual is not, in fact, one of the most important parts of her character, and yet, it's always a Big Fucking Deal.

Christ, I hate television sometimes. It's so bloody frustrating.

[helens78]

To me, one of the things that shows how far we've come is the fact that accusing someone of being gay is no longer a defamatory offense. It's no longer casually and commonly accepted that being assumed to be gay is career- and life-harming stuff. I love that. As much as I'd like to see more progress and would love to have matter-of-fact, "just happens to be" gay stories, I think you're absolutely right and that it's the baby steps that get people where they're going.

[ashinae.livejournal.com]

To me, one of the things that shows how far we've come is the fact that accusing someone of being gay is no longer a defamatory offense.

Oh, WORD to that. However, it can still break up families; it can still be uncomfortable in a workplace (you never know how your co-workers will react, y'know?). Sigh. So much work to do!

Of course, one of the problems with the non-heterosexual sexualities is that "we" seem to be a minority that even minorities look down upon. It's the same, and yet it's different, and that's what makes it all the more frustrating. That's why I think baby steps are needed. Give "us" the same civil rights; let the sexuality become as secondary and "after-the-fact" as heterosexuality. After that's accomplished? Then, yes, yes, I think we will start to see so many more "just happens to be" gay stories on TV and in movies. I absolutely believe this. But I think the real world has to come first, while the fantasy world moves along slowly -- while I'm sure writers and show creators do love being able to tell a story, they still need to bring in as big an audience as possible to continue to do so!

And that last bit there? Heh, sums up perfectly how I feel about the people who cry about movie adaptations of books ;)

[sio.livejournal.com]

i too would think small steps would be better. at least until we do something abt the homophobes. i for one want the majority of them to fuck off and die. they make ME and every other REAL Christian look bad.

hello, Jesus said "love your neighbor". he did not bloody damn specify!

/rant

&i agree that Joss can actually go out on a limb.

/sarcasm on

like :gasp: appreciating his fans instead of treating them like crap! wow what a concept. :p

/sarcasm off

[ashinae.livejournal.com]

t least until we do something abt the homophobes. i for one want the majority of them to fuck off and die.

Am vaguely amused by this statement; which homophobes do you not want to fuck off? ;)

they make ME and every other REAL Christian look bad.

Real Christians are good people. They really are. In all my anger and frustration, I try to never forget that you exist; I always think about what a cool guy Jesus was. And, I mean, he was. He was the original hippie, man. *G*

One of the things I've said many times is that freedom of religion also extends to being allowed to ignore or let go of bigotry and hatred and instead focus on some of the crazy notions that Jesus actually tried to teach us: Love, compassion, and tolerance.

like :gasp: appreciating his fans instead of treating them like crap! wow what a concept. :p

Dear lord! What a crazy thing! ;) I wonder if Anne Rice is listening right now.

[sio.livejournal.com]

which homophobes do you not want to fuck off? ;)

a few are my friends--i'd like to pray that they will learn to cease judging and start caring. they don't have to approve but they can accept. just like me. i don't really approve of it. but i'm not turning my back on my gay or bi friends.

I wonder if Anne Rice is listening right now.

and Paramount :smirk: and Mercedes Lackey (who i'm told treats her fans like total shit--i refuse to read any of her books due to this fact).

[eclectic1az.livejournal.com]

In defense of Mercedes Lackey:

I met Mercedes Lackey many years ago at a filk event at a scifi con, before her first book was ever published (yeah, I'm that old). We also have several mutual friends in the fannish community.

She started off being somewhat sane and level-headed. However, as her Valdemar and Diana Tregarde series became popular, she got some unwanted attention (you know, *stalking*) from several so-called Neo-Pagans who took great offense to her books. Some felt that she was giving away too much information. Others felt that, since her writing did not match their individual belief system, she was in the wrong and needed to be shown the right path or outright stopped. Mercedes was understandably freaked-out by the vicious intent of some so-called fans, and has now taken a wary and suspicious approach towards fan contact.

I happen to be a 'mo and a Wiccan, I also have all of Mercedes Lackey's books from the Valdemar and Diana Tregarde universes. I appreciate her strengths with character development and dialogue, which makes up for her weaknesses in prose, pacing and endings. Mercedes takes great effort to include quality gay characters in many of her books.

I have seen outrageous behavior from fellow scifi fans and Neo-Pagans and do not blame Mercedes at all for her reluctance to be involved in fan interaction. This is a shame as she came directly from fannish circles and fostered her creativity through fanzines and filk writing.

[sio.livejournal.com]

there's a difference between protecting yourself from morons and stalkers and being rude to ALL your fans. i have a friend who knows her personally and this friend has seen her treat polite fans like shit. there is NO excuse for that. if her fans didn't buy her books she would be a nobody. she needs to take whatever action against the stalkers she feels necessary and treat the rest with respect.

[eclectic1az.livejournal.com]

I understand your point. However, isn't this an unrealistic expectation of other people's behavior?

In a perfect world, people who are in the public eye or have a modicum of fame would act exactly as we expect them to. The universal problem is that we all have a different idea of how that behavior should be.

Nowhere are we guaranteed the right to be treated with courtesy or kindness. It's a bonus when it actually happens.

Some famous people are rude or anti-social. Some famous people are wary of public interaction (and often with good reason). If Ms. Lackey is rude, anti-social or is a curmudgeon, nothing you or I do are going to change that.

I do recall going to a book signing for Anne McCaffrey several years ago. To call her a rude, ornery b*tch would be a kindness. Several of her fans walked away in tears and dismay over her mean-spiritedness.

[sio.livejournal.com]

okay obviously you missed my point.

my point was that ML could use a few classes in Joss' school of manners when it comes to the people who, essentially, pay your bills. without her adoring readers, she would be a nobody.

since i guess you can't see my point, i'm dropping it.

[gairid.livejournal.com]

Dear lord! What a crazy thing! ;) I wonder if Anne Rice is listening right now.

Don't count on it. She's too busy writing The AUTOBIOGRAPHY of Jesus Christ, because, you know, she must be channeling him or something.

And she still treats her erstwhile fans like shite.

[ashinae.livejournal.com]

She's too busy writing The AUTOBIOGRAPHY of Jesus Christ,

Wait... WHAT!?!!

... I need a "wtf" icon.

My brain hurts.

lurker surfaces

[mresundance.livejournal.com]

I've been poking around and reading your journal from time to time, and I have to say, your queer and political rants are always RIGHT ON.

Your songvids are also cool.

I have finally decided to de-lurk and friend thou. :)

Re: lurker surfaces

[ashinae.livejournal.com]

I've been poking around and reading your journal from time to time, and I have to say, your queer and political rants are always RIGHT ON.

Gosh, well, thank you *G* I fear I too often stray into the realm of the twenty-something who thinks she knows everything but really doesn't, but it's nice to hear that somebody thinks I might be on to something, sometimes. ;)

Your songvids are also cool.

Aww, thank you very much! :)

I have finally decided to de-lurk and friend thou. :)

Yay for de-lurking. Welcome to, well, the insanity. :)

Re: lurker surfaces

[mresundance.livejournal.com]

Insanity is good for everyone. :)

[eclectic1az.livejournal.com]

I completely agree and have a hard time fathoming why our kind is such perceived as such a horrible threat by anyone. I haven't eaten any babies since the oven broke (kidding!).

However, IMHO, the *worst* behavior is in our own communities. Self-hating gays, super-cliqueish gays, age-baised gays, conservative gays, closeted gays, men-hating lesbians, women-hating gay men and Log Cabin Republicans do more harm to us than anyone outside could ever do.

[ashinae.livejournal.com]

I completely agree and have a hard time fathoming why our kind is such perceived as such a horrible threat by anyone.

It's something I can't quite understand, either. I've never understood how people jump from "gay marriage --> people marrying their dogs" or the "if gay people are allowed rights, then there won't be any more kids born and the human race will DIE OUT". I want to know what kind of drugs I have to take to be able to make such incredible leaps of (il)logic.

I haven't eaten any babies since the oven broke (kidding!).

Oh, do try the kitten sauce when you get your oven fixed. ;)

However, IMHO, the *worst* behavior is in our own communities. Self-hating gays, super-cliqueish gays, age-baised gays, conservative gays, closeted gays, men-hating lesbians, women-hating gay men and Log Cabin Republicans do more harm to us than anyone outside could ever do.

Lord, yes. I would, of course, be interested in finding out whether or not any other suppressed 'minority' has had as much trouble from within (I'm sure that the suffrage movement does -- cuz, hell, there are a lot of issues within the world of women and rights, and a lot of those come straight from women).

I mean, the kind of hatred I've heard directed at bisexuals from the gay community astounds me. The things I've heard gay people -- most often lesbians, but that may be just because I'm a girl and spend more time with other girls -- baffles me, because if anybody, anybody at all, said some of those same things about homosexuals, these same women would be frothing at the mouth.

My favourite is a self-proclaimed gay man in a woman's body, who absolutely hates women, doesn't believe that bisexuals exist, apparently doesn't believe that any lesbian who isn't butch is actually a lesbian at all, is married to a man, and is apparently gayer than anybody else has ever gayed before. I mean... bzuhwha? When this kind of madness is coming from within the "alternative sexuality" camp, how can we expect to truly make any steps forward when all we're doing is hating ourselves and each other? *tears hair out in frustration*