ashinae: (Default)
ashinae ([personal profile] ashinae) wrote2004-01-02 06:19 pm
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I'm a bad, bad girl.

I would just like to make a few things plain and clear, in case I suddenly say something later that somebody will find offensive, and will need to unFriend me. This may make it much easier to get it over and done with right now. I am an opinionated bitch, and if that's too much for somebody to handle, then it's probably best that I put this out on the table.

Of course, it goes without saying that these are merely the opinions of a relatively young person who hasn't even finished college yet, and I have always believed in the concept of agreeing to disagree, but from reading some stuff on my friends page, it seems that some people can't cope with that concept. Therefore, here I go:

(1) FotR is still my favourite. I get caught up in RotK when I watch it -- have seen it three times now -- but then several hours later, it just feels very flat. It feels like a good third of the movie is missing so that we can watch special effects. Grr, I say. Where's the real movie? Where's the story? What happened to all the characters besides Frodo and Sam? I always felt that despite the title, Return of the King is about Sam, but really now. The other people in the story did more than kill Orcs. Where's the damned Extended Version, I've been robbed!

Before anybody says that I like FotR best just because of Boromir, let me also say this -- I get thoroughly, horribly bored during action sequences once they've been going on more than five or so minutes. The fighting in Balin's Tomb felt too long for me. Though, yes, I will admit that what kept Amon Hen from feeling too long for me was watching Boromir, Merry and Pippin.

I love FotR for the same reasons I love M&C -- it's a movie about characters, with a few action sequences cutting up all the talking. Master and Commander is and will remain my favourite 2003 movie (likely only to be challenged by Lost in Translation when I get my hands on the DVD for that in February, if I can trust what "everybody" is saying about this movie). I will be rooting all the way for Return of the King for all the awards it is up for, but I will always feel that the awards given to RotK will in fact be for the entire trilogy.

(2) I can't stand movie Legolas. There, I've said it. I really, genuinely dislike him. He's pretty. And... what else? What does he do, besides Stupid Elf Tricks He is given virtually all the worst dialogue in all three movies, and often only states the very, very obvious -- and one line in RotK merely gives the two-word idiot's version of a speech by Aragorn. *headdesk* I mean, honestly. If somebody can't figure out what it is Aragorn is talking about at that point -- well, if they're a kid, it's forgiven. If they're not a kid, there's no way for me to say what I'm thinking about that without being very, very mean.

I will NEVER make a music video about Legolas. Ever. (Or Haldir for that matter) So please stop asking me. Stop hoping for one. It isn't happening. After RotK is released for home viewing, I will make ONE Elf-centric music video, because the song I have in mind is indeed perfect. And that's it. No more.

As far as I'm concerned, Jackson's Gimli and Legolas are jokes. Very much a disservice to the characters that Tolkien wrote.

(3) Yes, there are things in TTT and RotK that I get excited about. There are things about them that I love. There are more things in either of these movies than in FotR that make me want to bang my head against a brick wall. But I like my movies to be about people, first and foremost. Which is why TTT and RotK frustrate me, because the characters seem secondary to the special effects.

And this, I'm sure, is why three hours after each of my three viewings of RotK, I get a desperate desire to go see M&C again. Damn all the theatres I'd be willing to drive to, for having dropped M&C already.

There. Said.

*looks around*

*waits for the unFriendings to begin*
(deleted comment)

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-03 08:17 pm (UTC)(link)
*blushes furiously* Oh, well, shucks. What can I say? And, really, to gain more love than a Spare Boromir? I shall work hard not to disappoint. *G*

[identity profile] belenajake.livejournal.com 2004-01-02 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)
At least people don't unFriend you for being boring!

I don't know why anyone would unFriend you for having an opinion. I myself have opinions that don't follow the main stream of thought. I actually *prefer* movie Faramir to book Faramir. Sacrilege, I know. But it's true, and I liked movie Faramir even in the theatrical of TTT. Movie Faramir is less saintly, more like Boromir, more "real"...the fact that he *was* tempted, very strongly, and then realized that he needed to let Frodo go, made him a more compelling character to me. The Extended certainly cememted the Faramir love for me.

I've seen ROTK four times, and liked it better each time, but you're right, it could have been called "The Return of Sam" (which woulda fit in with the last line, eh?). While I don't hate Legolas, I do have to agree that they butchered his part. He's basically the Deanna Troi of the Fellowship, and it's annoying...which is why I will drool over the pretty parts, but I don't talk about his character cuz there's just nothing to say about it. I prefer fanfic Legolas! And my poor Eomer! My favorite book character has been reduced to scowling in the background, a little shouting here and there, and a cute line with his sister. I found Helm's Deep to be a much more engrossing battle than Pelannor Fields, although I have to say that watching the Rohirrim charge the orcs for the first time made my heart swell up. Gawd, I love my Rohirrim...

And I didn't mean to write a novel in your comments page, sorry! I guess I just wanted to say that the movies have different appeals and turn-offs for everyone, and you're just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I mean, there are people that actually like Arwen. I have no idea why they feel that way, but I respect their freedom to do so. Just don't nobody muck with my Faramir, or I'll get tetchy. ;o)

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 05:51 pm (UTC)(link)
At least people don't unFriend you for being boring!

I'd truly hate for people to think I'm boring.

I don't know why anyone would unFriend you for having an opinion.

I can't quite fathom it myself, but it seems that in the LotR fandom, there's a lot of problems with people having dissenting opinions -- particularly when they involve NOT thinking the movies are perfect.

I actually *prefer* movie Faramir to book Faramir. Sacrilege, I know.

I don't mind at all :) I love them both for various reasons. I admit I was truly shocked the first time I heard him say that they would take the Ring to Gondor, but... well, it was shock. And I got over it *G*

the fact that he *was* tempted,

Now, I will argue till the day I day, that I truly truly believe even book!Faramir was tempted by the Ring.

And my poor Eomer!

*sobs* Eomer! Now there is a true tragedy. I mean, when you think about it, he's not even King of Rohan in the movie! And he was so wonderfully dynamic on screen, I don't understand why they couldn't have given him just five more minutes, at least, instead of so many Orc or Oliphaunt "glamour" shots. Sigh.

found Helm's Deep to be a much more engrossing battle than Pelannor Fields, although I have to say that watching the Rohirrim charge the orcs for the first time made my heart swell up. Gawd, I love my Rohirrim...

I would like to agree with everything you say here, except, um, I need you to share those Rohirrim with me ;)

I mean, there are people that actually like Arwen. I have no idea why they feel that way, but I respect their freedom to do so.

Hee! I don't mind Arwen, per se, I'm just not a fan of Liv Tyler. Had she been played by an actress that I find more appealing, I'd probably be 100% behind her *g*

[identity profile] lorie945.livejournal.com 2004-01-02 04:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, now I have to ask -- have you read the M&C books? I haven't, and I didn't feel it was a movie about characters. Except for the doctor, I couldn't keep anyone straight, who they were or if they lived, died, or were French. The friendship between the captain and the doctor was nicely suggested, but not really developed as far as I was concerned. I still thought it was a good movie, but I wanted more information about everyone.

So. I was wondering if, to you, it was a truer adaptation of a book than RotK, and also if you thought reading the book first would have helped me understand it/enjoy it more.

Fellowship is still my favorite of the three movies, btw.
cruisedirector: (loveboat)

[personal profile] cruisedirector 2004-01-02 09:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I have not read the M&C books but I thought it was very much a movie about characters -- not all of them, to be sure, but all the major plot events pivot around Jack and Stephen's relationship, and there was some lovely development between Stephen and Blakeney (the blonde boy), Jack and Tom Pullings (the first mate whom he made captain at the end), the various interactions with the sailing master and carpenter about how much the ship could take...we're not supposed to care how many knots they're doing or whether they're actually going to get a new mast, but about how the hierarchy works and what it does to people (like Hollum and Nagle, the midshipman who committed suicide and the crewman flogged for insulting him).

[identity profile] lorie945.livejournal.com 2004-01-03 05:27 am (UTC)(link)
Interesting. I guess since I couldn't tell people apart much, I didn't get a lot of that. I felt more that they'd spotlight someone for a minute (for instance, the suicide) and give us just enough info to explain what was about to happen, and I felt like I was then supposed to care -- but I didn't.

I may have to go ahead and read the books, then see it again, to see if it changes for me.

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't read the books, have just started in recently. But I am a very, very odd person -- I will often forget what I had for breakfast, but I can walk out of a movie like M&C knowing the names of half or more of the characters involved. So, for me, the movie did indeed feel like it was about all the guys on board, and not about the actual chase or any of the action sequences. Like I said, I'm odd *G*

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 07:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh -- and as far as an adaptation of a book. That's tough. I know that M&C is an adaptation of TWO of O'Brian's books, so it's probably not going to work out that way at all -- as a "true" adaptation. I'm not sure I can compare. I still feel Jackson truly botched a few characters, added incredible things to others, and put far more emphasis on any of the fighting than Tolkien ever intended. That's just how I feel about that *g*

[identity profile] lorie945.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 08:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, you might be odd, but I wish I were more that way. Unless I've read a book first, the characters can kind of blend. But of course, if I've read and loved the book first, the movie can kind of piss me off. I understand anyone who's upset about the LotR movies; the only way I can keep from screaming (after the first viewing, which is all screams) is to keep telling myself it's something else entirely.

fotr

[identity profile] ardath3.livejournal.com 2004-01-02 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)
i agree with you about the three movies. i liked fellowship the

best also. it was character-driven. i saw rotk twice-liked it

better the second time. but it did seem flat. i didn't like

what the movie did to denethor-the book version is much more

interesting and tragic. also,i never got a sense that aragorn

was made to be king-except that he had the right bloodline.

i saw fotr at least 10 times-always enjoyed it and felt as if

i were dropped right into middle earth.

livilla

Re: fotr

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the loss of the Houses of Healing did not help in giving us a firm picture of King Elessar -- he was still "just" Aragorn. Book!Aragorn always knew damn well what he had to do and went out to do it, and healing Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry just sort of tied everything up neatly for him. Had Jackson not infused movie!Aragorn with a bit more personality than book!Aragorn had, he probably could have neatly left that scene out if only that it wouldn't have added that much more to Aragorn's character. I hope this makes snse *G*

And Denethor? Sigh. I think John Noble was fantastic -- I remember thinking "Wow, DENETHOR" when I saw the very first picture of him that was released. But without all the background, Denethor became almost as much of a caricature as Legolas and Gimli, which is extraordinarily unfortunate as Denethor, while not someone I ever, ever liked, was a truly dynamic, interesting character.

[identity profile] rohandove.livejournal.com 2004-01-02 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Fellowship is a favorite, all that Boromir... I think I like TT SE the best. For various reasons, mainly Boromir and Faramir together.

I am not defriending you. You are stuck with me. :)

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 07:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh... the Boromir and Faramir. Sigh! That is definitely one of my absolutely favourite scenes. Boromir. Faramir. The love, the gorgeousness, the gorgeousness and the love. *G*

I am not defriending you. You are stuck with me. :)

Oh, excellent :)

[identity profile] sisterofnight.livejournal.com 2004-01-02 09:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Absolutely no unfriending from my end. If anything, I'd friend you twice or more. I'm so happy when someone dares to drop the "PJ is a genius; this is the best.movie.ever!" script and actually have an opinion. If you love something and are involved in a fandom, you MUST acknowledge the good AND the bad, or else you're not a true fan.

He is given virtually all the worst dialogue in all three movies, and often only states the very, very obvious

Amen to that! Oy. Wanted to smack him so very badly. Was hoping the Oliphaunt would somehow, in my second viewing, step on him. & that crown-thingy. *shudder* So unflattering. (I think I'm about one of the only people who finds the humans more attractive in the LotR movies than the elves.)

... any hopes of an Eowyn vid? *L* Or a vid of just gratuitous eye shots?

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)
If anything, I'd friend you twice or more.

Oh, thank you so much!

actually have an opinion.

Jackson is truly a visionary; and I do feel that as a whole, the extended editions of these movies will be a true sight to behold. But they are simply not. perfect. I've never understood the concept of absolute source-material-worship. Of COURSE we're allowed to question, to point out glaring plot holes (and in the theatrical cuts, there are many -- I often wonder what anyone gets out of these when they haven't read the book)

Wanted to smack him so very badly.

*ahem*

Legolas: "A diversion." *looks around* "I'm standing. We're in Minas Tirith. Gimli is sitting on Denethor's chair for comic relief. Aragorn has cleaned up a little. Gandalf --"
Eomer: *thwacks him*
Legolas: *falls over unconscious*
Aragorn, Gandalf, Gimli: *cheering*

I'm a bad, terrible person.

& that crown-thingy. *shudder*

THANK YOU! Finally someone who agrees with me. I didn't think Legolas looked good there at all.

I think I'm about one of the only people who finds the humans more attractive in the LotR movies than the elves.

Well, you can add my two best friends and me to the list of people who like the men better, I think.

... any hopes of an Eowyn vid? *L* Or a vid of just gratuitous eye shots?

Oh, absolutely! As soon as I find the right songs!

[identity profile] imation23.livejournal.com 2004-01-03 06:13 am (UTC)(link)
I always feel kind of stupid when people say that they loved FotR because it was a character-driven movie, because it is actually my least favourite movie out of the three. I actually thought it was *too* slow-paced and dragged in too many places. I liked the fact that it introduced us to the characters, and I thought it was visually stunning, but I think that I actually came to understand and know all the characters better in the second and third movies. Aragorn's journey was particularly well-written and acted, IMO. And although there were some *scenes* where I felt that the characters were secondary to the special effects, I never felt that the *movies* were.

I agree about Legolas and Gimli - but I still saw enough of their friendship to be happy with their characters, and felt their loyalty to Aragorn. I also thought that a lot of the fight scenes, and what the characters did in them, revealed a lot about the various characters and their personalities.

I'm not going to defriend you, of course. :) I enjoy reading your opinions even if I don't feel the same way, because I'm always surprised at how the same movies can have such different effects on people.

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-04 09:58 pm (UTC)(link)
It's always personal opinion and preference. :) I am not a fan of action movies. I never really have been. So when a movie is what other people would consider slow, I generally like it better *g* I like a lot of talking, drama, tension, rather than action and excitement.

When Legolas and Gimli were together, they were rather acceptable. It's just that when they weren't talking to each other... *sniff* I missed them, if that makes any sense whatsoever.
ext_2362: the carrier (Boromir)

[identity profile] hippydeath.livejournal.com 2004-01-03 11:18 am (UTC)(link)
My god, you're a breath of fresh air. I love the films for all they are, but they'll never live up to the books, and there is a list as long as my arm of things that I have issues with. Especially Legolas.
One of my teachers pointed out (in reference to films in general) that it's all very well having lots of amazing special effects, but if there isn't decent characterisation, and said characters aren't allowed to develop, there's no point to the special effects, apart from to pacify all the people who don't care about characterisation (which isn't insulting anyone, please don't hurt me).

Anyway, I think I've taken enough of your journal space.

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-05 03:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Why thank you kindly *G*

I agree -- for those of us who love the books, the movies will never live up. Couldn't possibly, and I think when a person loves reading, no movie could ever live up to the source material. Though certainly, movies can be incredible things in their own rights.

Tolkien aside, as I did say in my original post about RotK, many, many of my biggest complaints are the kinds of things that bother me about any movie. And you've pretty much nailed a huge part of those bothers on the head, with what your teacher had said. That's exactly my problem with it. They spend a whole lot more time running around killing things than they do developing any of these characters. And that causes me to pout.

[identity profile] sahari.livejournal.com 2004-01-03 01:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm so with your there. My fave is still FotR as well, and although I can appreciate all three movies (and their existing or soon-to-be-existing extended versions), I can also see so many flaws.

Yes, Legolas has the most stupid-ass lines anywhere. Gimli is almost a master of subtlety in comparison. "A red sun rises; blood has been spilt this night." WTF? Why was that even said? "A diversion." Thank you, Mr. Exposition.

I don't see RotK as about Sam as much as it is about the hobbits. Tolkien ended with Sam, and that does make an impression when the film ends with him as well. He is, however, pretty much Frodo's savior and the one of the four that is able to fit back into hobbit society fairly seemlessly.

S

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-05 03:12 pm (UTC)(link)
"A red sun rises; blood has been spilt this night." WTF? Why was that even said?

Apparently we're supposed to think it's Legolas being all mysti-kal. *rolls eyes* Whatever. You know, interestingly enough, whenever I hear people talking about Legolas, it's either that he's pretty, or that the stunts are cool. Which, really, is sad, because he was rather a lot of fun in the book.

I don't see RotK as about Sam as much as it is about the hobbits.

Hmm, yeah, that's very true. Must ponder this :)
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (lick)

[personal profile] lannamichaels 2004-01-03 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Is there any way I can add you again?

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-05 03:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Dude, that sounds so kinky. *grin*
(deleted comment)

[identity profile] ashinae.livejournal.com 2004-01-05 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I'm really quite certain they most of what they cut were good, deep, meaningful scenes that truly furthered the characters and plot and made things much more... real. In a fantasy movie like this, I need to see the people being *people* to make me fall into that world. Otherwise I just start noticing all the CGI *G*

And you know, if I could find a song, and if there is truly enough footage, I could indeed make an Elrond vid *G*